Jesus Debate (round 2)

[Grindslave]

This video isn't blasphemy, it's not an eff god thing, but it does question things.. i encourage all believers and non believers alike, of any path to watch.. it's only a minute and seventeen seconds long, and maybe we can spark a new conversation with it... it tackles something in my opinion deeper then the existence question..

YouTube - Growing Up

YouTube - Growing Up

[wayno007]

The author creates a false dichotomy between those who think this plane of existence is sufficient, and those who take an immature view of reality. I find it to be atheist rhetoric without much substance.

[Grindslave]

Originally Posted by wayno007

The author creates a false dichotomy between those who think this plane of existence is sufficient, and those who take an immature view of reality. I find it to be atheist rhetoric without much substance.

I see.. Well, thanks for taking the time to watch it! I wouldn't call it atheist rhetoric, but I can see where your coming from.. I found more of a philosophical question in it.. If one is not happy with the world around them, and the almighty is seemingly doing nothing about it, would it be better to take your own go at it, without the biblical standpoint, from an outside looking in perspective, I don't find it too terribly outlandish

[wayno007]

Originally Posted by Grindslave

I see.. Well, thanks for taking the time to watch it! I wouldn't call it atheist rhetoric, but I can see where your coming from.. I found more of a philosophical question in it.. If one is not happy with the world around them, and the almighty is seemingly doing nothing about it, would it be better to take your own go at it, without the biblical standpoint, from an outside looking in perspective, I don't find it too terribly outlandish

Well, okay, perhaps ‘atheist rhetoric’ is a bit harsh. I’ll admit that I’m predisposed to reject *her* opinions based on her other videos. She tends to be dismissive of theistic positions, not lending herself to open dialogue.

Her premise is limiting, equating those with faith as children living at home, where those who have truly matured and are taking control of their lives are those who have moved away from God. It’s a convenient analogy. She’s equating the following of one’s religion as limiting, where those of us who have faith find it to be just the opposite.

She doesn’t mention about God doing nothing about the world condition. Even if she did, for argument’s sake, there’s no evidence that she would find sufficient.

[Grindslave]

Originally Posted by wayno007

Well, okay, perhaps ‘atheist rhetoric’ is a bit harsh. I’ll admit that I’m predisposed to reject *her* opinions based on her other videos. She tends to be dismissive of theistic positions, not lending herself to open dialogue.

Her premise is limiting, equating those with faith as children living at home, where those who have truly matured and are taking control of their lives are those who have moved away from God. It’s a convenient analogy. She’s equating the following of one’s religion as limiting, where those of us who have faith find it to be just the opposite.

She doesn’t mention about God doing nothing about the world condition. Even if she did, for argument’s sake, there’s no evidence that she would find sufficient.

BionicDance is actually reading the bible now.. she admitted that being in her 30's, she had never read it, or given it a fair shake, so on her channel, i believe it's in a playlist, she interviewed a pastor, and he gave her a bible, and explained things the way he sees them, and it was a very nice discussion I think. then, book by book, she takes notes, then uploads a video basically narrating the book, chapter by chapter..

I know the philosophy question wasn't a direct quote, but that is what I got out of it.. I don't think it's an unfair question.

[wayno007]

Originally Posted by Grindslave

BionicDance is actually reading the bible now.. she admitted that being in her 30's, she had never read it, or given it a fair shake, so on her channel, i believe it's in a playlist, she interviewed a pastor, and he gave her a bible, and explained things the way he sees them, and it was a very nice discussion I think. then, book by book, she takes notes, then uploads a video basically narrating the book, chapter by chapter..

That's great that she's reading the Bible, but this is a recent video that demonstrates that she's not changed her position on theology -- a number of atheists read the Bible.

If she's truly studying the Bible, she'd understand that Christians are not failing to leave home, but are actively seeking to *get into* God's house:

"In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you." - John 14:2

We're in the world like everyone else, seeking to fellowship with Him.

Originally Posted by Grindslave

I know the philosophy question wasn't a direct quote, but that is what I got out of it.. I don't think it's an unfair question.

No, not unfair at all, and I'm sorry if I led you to believe that. I still affirm that there isn't evidence strong enough to convince her.

[Grindslave]

Originally Posted by wayno007

That's great that she's reading the Bible, but this is a recent video that demonstrates that she's not changed her position on theology -- a number of atheists read the Bible.

If she's truly studying the Bible, she'd understand that Christians are not failing to leave home, but are actively seeking to *get into* God's house:

"In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you." - John 14:2

We're in the world like everyone else, seeking to fellowship with Him.

Yes, she isn't reading it to become religious, but she's reading it in what is supposed to be the context set out by that pastor she interviewed and a few other people. She tries to be fair, but you can tell she is still struggling through the Old Testament, I myself did the same.. it's hard to think of alot of the things god does in the old testament to be good, but this is from the outside looking in. I'm sure the Nazi's loyal to hitler felt that their genocide was a good thing, just as Christians, Jews, and Muslims all feel that the genocides god commits are justified, or a good thing.

I'm not comparing Religious folk with Nazi's in the context of the belief systems, just the mind set. Both groups can recognize that genocide is bad, but if god or hitler does so it's ok because it's in the name of a belief they hold profound.

her take on the OT is a little different, but better detail.

No, not unfair at all, and I'm sorry if I led you to believe that. I still affirm that there isn't evidence strong enough to convince her.

agreed.

[wayno007]

Originally Posted by Grindslave

I'm sure the Nazi's loyal to hitler felt that their genocide was a good thing, just as Christians, Jews, and Muslims all feel that the genocides god commits are justified, or a good thing.

I'm not comparing Religious folk with Nazi's in the context of the belief systems, just the mind set. Both groups can recognize that genocide is bad, but if god or hitler does so it's ok because it's in the name of a belief they hold profound.

This again? Allow me to clarify:

God does not condone genocide.
God has never committed genocide.

In all instances where an evil group was wiped out, God announced the judgement in public, gave the offenders the opportunity to repent or leave the country, and many times small groups of individuals from the affected groups were saved from destruction.

[Grindslave]

Originally Posted by wayno007

This again? Allow me to clarify:

God does not condone genocide.
God has never committed genocide.

In all instances where an evil group was wiped out, God announced the judgement in public, gave the offenders the opportunity to repent or leave the country, and many times small groups of individuals from the affected groups were saved from destruction.

sorry it took me so long to respond, I finally got home about 10 minutes ago..

I am not trying to rehash old arguments, but really trying to grasp the mindset.. warning someone to leave they're homeland and everything they know was common in more barbaric times, but I wouldn't consider mass murder justified simply because they were warned to leave before the murders occurred. For example, let's take a look at something at a much lower scale such as... Let's say a man and his spouse are fighting, and the spouse is taking cheap shots and pushing all the wrong buttons, so the man warns his spouse that if she keeps it up, he will beat the snot out of her. When she keeps pushing his buttons, and he fulfills his promise of giving her an ass kicking, I wouldn't consider it justified just because he warned her that he would hit her if she didn't stop pissing him off..

dunno, I've been doing a lot of research in the different denominations of Christianity, and although all have some pretty vast differences in practice and beliefs it seems that there people can commit evil acts, but god can never be held to the same standard for the same crimes.. is it the god-fearing that makes people believe in a different context, in such a case perhaps people recognize it's wrong, but are afraid of celestial reprocussion?

[wayno007]

Originally Posted by Grindslave

I am not trying to rehash old arguments, but really trying to grasp the mindset.. warning someone to leave they're homeland and everything they know was common in more barbaric times, but I wouldn't consider mass murder justified simply because they were warned to leave before the murders occurred.

Capital punishment =/= mass murder. We believe God has the authority to pass judgment against sin. Sometimes it’s not pleasant, but that’s how punishment works.

Originally Posted by Grindslave

For example, let's take a look at something at a much lower scale such as... Let's say a man and his spouse are fighting, and the spouse is taking cheap shots and pushing all the wrong buttons, so the man warns his spouse that if she keeps it up, he will beat the snot out of her. When she keeps pushing his buttons, and he fulfills his promise of giving her an ass kicking, I wouldn't consider it justified just because he warned her that he would hit her if she didn't stop pissing him off..

In this scenario, she should have left. Justified or not, it was within her power to leave and contact the authorities. Whether it was pride, ignorance, or misplaced love, she’s making a bad choice by staying in an environment where the consequences are assured.

However, this smaller scaled scenario isn’t representative of a Biblical account. Find one you take exception with and let’s discuss.

Originally Posted by Grindslave

dunno, I've been doing a lot of research in the different denominations of Christianity, and although all have some pretty vast differences in practice and beliefs it seems that there people can commit evil acts, but god can never be held to the same standard for the same crimes..

It sounds like you’re applying the laws of man to God, and mixing terms. Murder is the unlawful taking of life, where killing is the lawful act. In war, men kill other men, but it’s not murder. By the same token, God passes judgment and takes life.

If you really want to run down the rabbit hole, consider this: Since God determines how long a person lives, he either doesn’t commit murder, or he is constantly committing murder.

Originally Posted by Grindslave

is it the god-fearing that makes people believe in a different context, in such a case perhaps people recognize it's wrong, but are afraid of celestial reprocussion?

If a person believes in God just out of fear, then they’ve missed the point of Christianity.